Excessive Weather Helm

From: Mel Donahoo Melvin_L._Donahoo@postal.essd.northgrum.com

Hello nice web pages. please post the following in your discussion forum, ok to include my e-mail address.

I have a 1980 32' sloop which I have owned for three years now. I love the boat. I've added roller reefing and a new North Sails 150 percent jib. I have a considerable amount of weather helm when the wind gets up around 15kts and I have to luff the main to the point it becomes useless. Above 15kts and gusting I've found that reefing the main and jib seem to work. Has anyone had experience with excessive weather helm on their 32 and what have you done about it. How much would you have to move the mast to make a difference. Also has anyone added an innerforstay to their boats I would like to discuss with you.

From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

Mel,
I've found that after the boat heels over to about 20 degrees, several things happen. The first is the underwater shape of the boat moving through the water changes radically. In other words the hull shape at that angle of heel seems to cause most of our weather helm (this is a difficult aspect to overcome). The second effect is that, usually, when we're sailing in those types of conditions, the wind/wave action causes the boat to roll more significantly. In my mind it seems to roll the boat along a 'threshold' (20 degrees) where the weather helm increases very rapidly. Since I feel that the weather helm issue is directly related to the hull shape, I do everything I can to keep us from heeling that significantly, and I think you'll find that most people will tell you that the more upright a boat sails, the faster they go. 3 to 5 degrees of weather helm doesn't seem to slow us down as much as over correcting our course does.

For this reason, I've spent a fair amount of time playing with sail shape and position to keep us in the 10 to 15 degree range. We're not only more comfortable, but sail as fast or faster than if we didn't. In fact, on this summers vacation, we averaged 6.8knts on a 12.5hr passage across Lake Michigan and consistently broke 8knts with an occasional 8.5knts. The most difficult point of sail on our E32 has been beating (close hauled)--sail shape and position are critical, and because the groove is so narrow, it's difficult to hold a heading when it's blowing. Working against you is the fact that the rig isn't easily tuned either.

Since your sails a relatively new, there are a couple of things you can do, but they primarily focus on flattening and/or reducing sail area in this order:

  1. Reduce wind pressure on the main or increase the pressure on the head sail. This can be done by shaping (trimming) the sails and dropping the main to leeward. As the wind increases, shape/position become more critical (s/b flatter). If you can, tighten the backstay. This helps to pull the fullness out of the main and will flatten the head sail. The idea is to flatten the sails and keep the draft forward.
  2. Tighten the outhaul to flatten the bottom part of the main. At the same time tighten the Main and Genoa halyard to keep the draft(s) forward. Bottom batten should line up with boom, top with windex, twist at the top will allow wind to spill.
  3. Move the Genoa lead aft to flatten the the lower section and twist off the leech
  4. The luff of the main bottom batten should line up with boom, top with windex, twist at the top will allow wind to spill
  5. Dropping the boom to leeward after shaping will reduce weather helm.
  6. Add a boom vang (helps maintain shape when easing out).
  7. More weight aft and windward, less weight in the bow (move anchor, empty the water tank in bow)
  8. Reef.

Remember, once you flatten a sail, you can quickly depower more by easing the sheet. Also, a freewheeling prop will cause uneven flow over the rudder causing turbulence and loss of some control. You can get away with flatter sails at a narrower angle to the wind in flat conditions and eased out, fuller sails with twist in chop. Keep the draft forward when beating.

In a nutshell, if we can't keep our toe rail out of the water, we reef--it doesn't slow us down if we trim properly. This is ok on longer sails because it'll sometimes take me (alone) 20 minutes or so to get it just right.

From: Robert Chamberlain rchamber@mail.snip.net

Mel,
According to Practical Sailor their survey indicated they received a mixed review on the boat's balance under sail. Some reporting excessive weather helm while others felt the boat was well balanced. You might check to make sure the mast is not raked too far aft. Jib might not be trimmed enough or main trimmed in too much. You might have too much weight forward in the boat (is the water tank full?). Is the boat heeling excessively? I don't have much experience with my boat yet so I can only offer some suggestions that might cause this type of problem.

Date: May 28, 1998
From: Don Garrett

As has been reported in other forums, the 42 has some weather helm, however it is not a big problem and can be eased significantly with reefing and trim. She responds well to the helm and tacks with ease, unlike similar sized Out Islands.

Date: June 1, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

I agree. The weather helm is caused by too much 'wind pressure' on the main. I also find weather helm to build significantly after 15 degrees of heel so we try to sail above this angle (besides it's a bit more comfortable). Given that the mast on the E32 isn't designed to be 'bent' (which helps pull the fullness out of the top and middle of the main) as on a racing oriented boat, you're left with halyard and outhaul tension to flatten the sail. If your sail is starting to get old(er) and is not as easily 'shaped' anymore, you might try to have the main recut--talk to your sailmaker first. You might also ask about a 'flattening reef'. The only other choice I've found is to reef a bit earlier or buy new sails. Make sure the sailmaker optimizes for this issue--it can breathe new life into your boat.

Date: June 5, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

One other comment on weather helm. I'm assuming that the boat is sitting on its lines properly, and that the rig has been tuned. You have to have your rig and boat balanced to have the greatest success. Most weather helm issues are from 'owner error' and can be eliminated. Our 32 is pretty well balanced and can track with little course correction at the helm.

Date: October 21, 1998
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com

I'd have to agree with all I've read here. Practical Sailor way back in '80 said the '32 would be tricky to sail with limited wx helm. The hull is a little gentle with the shoal draft keel, but doesn't heel far before the hull gets stiff. Mine heels easily to about 15 degrees, then begins to resist further heeling as is normal for the hull design. Definitely keep the main hauled tight if you plan to be in wind of plus 15, and let the main out to leeward as much as possible while still teasing the telltales. I crank in about 5 to 7 degrees of rudder, lock the helm, and trim like it really matters. The rudder deflection comes from racing, and orients the hydroflow along the keel/rudder line to develop a little lift to windward. A deep keel would help, but it isn't installed !! Whatever you do, don't install trim tabs !!! It's an above the coaming issue in most cases.

Date: October 21, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

I agree. In addition, if I know the wind is 20+ apparent, we'll fly a working jib and reef to reduce heal (10-15 degrees). Reducing heal will reduce your rudder angle and allow you sail a bit faster and more comfortably. Of course this depends upon whether you're beating, reaching, or running.

Date: 21 October, 1998
From: John Bartoszek jbartosz@symbol.com

Paul,
I noticed on your entry of June 1, you implied that bending the mast helped reduce weather helm by taking the fullness out of the main. I was always under the impression that the more you "raked" a mast, the more weather helm you created. In fact when I tuned my rigging earlier this year, I lowered my roller furling to bring the mast slightly forward to help reduce the weather helm. I guess I'm confused (and still searching for an answer to my problem).

I suspect part of my weather helm is due to the cut of my genny. The genny (new with the boat from the previous owner) has a "high foot" and the existing tracks do not allow me to position my block far enough aft. So as a result I am pulling more on the leach than the foot as I pull the sail in on a close haul. My analysis is that, as the wind picks up, the tightness of the upper part of the genny is causing the boat to heel excessively and thus causing my weather helm problems. One of the reasons I bought the boat was to be able to sail with full sail in wind speeds in the high teens to low 20s. But as I reported earlier, I find I have to reef at about 12 knots to be comfortable.

I plan on installing more track aft and see if that helps.

Date: October 21, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

John,
I'm by no means an expert but there are several factors that I believe effect weather helm but they seem to center around the alignment of the boats COE or center of effort and CLR or center of lateral resistance. In other words, as the COE moves aft the CLR, weather helm is created and the boat will head up. The way I visualize it is that there is too much pressure on the sails behind the pivot point of the keel causing the boat to pivot. Healing can cause a similar effect through hull shape and COE offset.

For that reason, we try to keep our boat upright (preferably 10-15 degrees max) by reducing the amount of pressure on all sails (smaller area) and reduce weather helm by reducing the pressure aft--reefed or flattened main (or increasing pressure forward--larger sail). I'm assuming that you've properly set the sails. This moves the COE forward and reduces the forces causing the boat to turn into the wind. Also, placing weight (crew) aft along the weather side helps to keep the boat upright, raises the bow, and moves the CLR aft.

What mast bend does is allow the sail to flatten by "moving the luff away from the leech, which pulls fabric out of the middle of that sail", thereby reducing pressure. Straight mast = depth, mast bend = flattened sail. I do this by tightening the backstay on windy days. In addition this will tighten and straighten your head stay reducing the sag in the luff of your headsail. If you've ever noticed, slow flying airplanes have flatter or thicker wings with the maximum draft forward, and faster planes have proportionately thinner wings along their chord.

Also, you need to use the mainsheet to open the leech. A closed or tight leech "kicks" the air flow to windward, creating a large side force to leeward at the stern of your boat. My procedure for trimming the main is:

  1. Ballpark trim the mainsheet
  2. Adjust overall fullness (bend)
  3. Adjust fore-and-aft position of fullness (cunningham)
  4. Use traveler to balance helm

As for your genny, it seems to me that you would need a 'larger' sail to 'push' the bow of your boat off the wind. I seems to me that the tightness at the top of your genny would cause more heel, and by moving your sheet aft would add more twist and reduce pressure--same as the main.

"Raking" your mast is different than mast bend. Raking positions the top of the mast forward or aft of center. Moving it forward will also reduce weather helm. Also, a mast 'leaning' to leeward will induce weather helm.

Hope you find this helpful.

Date: March 20, 1999
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

I was recently reading a used boat review on the Valiant 40 in the April 1999 issue of "Sailing" magazine (pgs 40-41) in which the reviewer John Kretschmer wrote:

"The Valiant 40 was designed as a cutter, as opposed to what (Robert) Perry later called a double headsail sloop. The mast is located well aft and the boom is not overly long, which makes for a manageable mainsail. Most boats used intermediate stays to support the staysail, although some owners have opted for runners to avoid chafe. Early boats featured end boom sheeting, which tended to increase the weather helm. Later a mid boom sheeting arrangement was added, which opened up the cockpit and eased the helm."

Also, Gary Jobson's article "Sailing on the Main Street" in the February 1999 issue of Cruising World (pgs 80-88) focuses on handling and tuning your mainsail, I thought a very good article. In it he makes the following comments:

"On a boat with marked weather helm, a roachless main may be the appropriate solution despite the smaller sail area."

"Worn out blocks, end-boom sheeting, and stiff lines make (mainsail) trim difficult"

"End-boom sheeting causes twist in the upper part of the main, wasting air, and makes it difficult to flatten the sail, particularly off the wind. It also forces you to use a boom vang at all times."

"It's also possible to flatten the main without reefing, thanks to the cunningham hole. . . . When you haul down on the cunningham hole, you actually eliminate a major part of the draft, low in the foot of the main. . . . Flattening the sail in that manner will also help sailing to windward in a light breeze."

"The best way to sheet the mainsail is with a mid boom arrangement utilizing three or more blocks and a fiddle block on a traveler car. If the mainsheet is set on a wide traveler--the wider the better--you'll be able to sheet in very tight when close hauled, or ease out on a reach while keeping the sail relatively flat, because the system also serves as a vang over a limited range."

What I find interesting is the recommendation of mid-boom sheeting to help minimize weather helm. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Has anyone moved their main sheet from the near-aft postion to a mid-boom position?

Date: May 12, 1999
From: Michael D. Redenius myacht@yahoo.com

I've read some of the forums on weatherhelm. I have had the same problem on the San Francisco bay where it blows 25-30 knots EVERYDAY in the summer. What I have done is reef the main or take it down completely when it get to 25 knots or more. The Endeavours were designed with the COE and CLR too far aft putting tremendous pressure on the rudder. I have had full 130% genoa up with no main and sailed completely across the bay without ever touching the helm. You need to keep the force on the bow. I spoke with Rob at the Endeavour factory (he was there when they still built production boats) and he said even if you take all the rake out of the mast you can not tune out weatherhelm. He said people have had great success putting on a bowsprit and moving the headsail forward a couple of feet. Not worth it to me other than that as long as nothing goes wrong under the sole I should have this boat for years to come.

Date: June 14, 1999
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

E32 Owners,
Bob Warren's recent note about weather helm is prompting me to ask if any of you have recently tried to 'solve' the problem with new sails. I'm begining to think about next years projects (repaint mast, lazy jacks, vang, new sails) and am thinking that, to some degree, this problem can be partially tuned out with a properly designed mainsail. For example, a high roach main would probably increase this problem. Personally my experience has been similar to Bob's although I find that the degree of heel influences this more than anything else. If we heel over more than 15 degrees, weather helm increases significantly. If we stay up the problem is minimal, although I agree that a large head sail helps.

Date: June 14, 1999
From: Bob and Sandy Warren rwarren@inna.net

When it gets 20+ we sail on genoa (150) alone and weather helm is minimal. If our main had a third set of reefing points I'd try that along with a working jib, but our main with two reefing points puts too much sail area aft of the center of effort. It is so significant that I doubt that raking the mast forward would help much. Although it might solve the problem of the boom being too low to be able to have a bimini and stand at the helm!

Date: June 16, 1999
From: Jim McMordie jim_mcmordie@gilbarco.com

I find all this discussion about weather helm confusing. I have a very neutral helm. Ok, a little weather helm, but just enough to be comfortable. I have a full battin main and a rather full (more pocket than I like) 150% genoa on a Cruising Design furler. The boom on my boat was raised about 6" before I got it (added headroom for bimini). That might be changing things some. Another thing is I don't have the center board in my boat and maybe that is making a difference. Can these people raise their board just a little and change the balance? My boat will round up if you get it over far enough, but the helm is not particularly heavy even before the round up.

Date: June 16, 1999
From: Tom Gilbert tgil95746@aol.com

Paul. I have both a new main and a 150 genoa. My E32 is no different than most. After 25 degrees of heel the rudder is only 50% effective, and the blow off of the maim sail is tremendous, not to mention the failure of the laminar flow past the rudder. Therefore, weather helm is significant, especially if you are the normal sailor and do not correct the heading up until after you notice it. ( which, by the way, is like being in yesterday land). Poor technique never won a race. Now, I do not let my E32 go beyond 25 degrees, as my stuff falls off the interior ledges. If I have a choice, I'll let the nose weather, then recover and live to sail another puff, without cleaning up the mess. Then, if this is an often drama, I'll reef. But if I don't get that center of pressure fwd, I'll have a strong aft moment, and still be into the weather helm. I really try to uphaul the main against the hooks, tie the reef knots secure, and really haul out on the new reef outhauls. All that flattens the sail again. That does just fine for me. By the way, my two reef outhauls are brand new, and go forward inside the boom to the clew area into jam cleats. I also roll up the jib a bunch, even though it lifts my center of pressure, I'll accept that as opposed to too much air going past the main. After all, isn't that the problem to begin with ??? Too much natural air ??? I could go on, but I'd probably get boring. I learned on a sunfish and hobie cats and have a degree in aeronautical engineering. Oh well. Tom.

Date: June 16, 1999
From: Kevin D. Coon kkcoon@worldnet.att.net

I had some weather helm with my old mainsail- stretching had moved the draft back. When I had a new main made with a lot of roach (it overlaps the back stay by about five inches) there was no more weather helm with the sails properly trimmed.. I was worried that the new main would increase the weather helm but my sail maker explained that the extra roach would decrease heeling and weather helm. Before replacing the main I tried raking the mast forward and found that it helped. With the new main I have tried forward rake , vertical, and aft rake and found no noticeable difference. I also found that weather helm often occurs with more than about 15 degrees of heel but it is less than with the old main. The two most common causes of excessive weather helm that I have run across, (regardless of the type of boat),are #1 improper sail trim, and #2 a worn out or poorly cut mainsail - look at the position of the maximum draft. A great book on sail and rig trim is Sailpower by Wallace Ross-I keep reading the first four chapters over and over. My 32 likes somewhat larger head sails and less mainsail than a lot of the other boats that I sail on but unless I'm running I don't use a 150 in 20 knots.

My sail maker spent a lot of time sailing with me to maximize the design of his sails for the characteristics of my boat. If you would like to contact him you can e-mail him at bankstpa@leading.net his name is Dennis Vellenga. He knows the Endeavour 32 real well. I hope some of this babbling is helpful. Good Luck!

Date: June 17, 1999
From: Tom Gilbert tgil95746@aol.com

Hi again. I wanted to let you know of a fantastic course available out there called SAIL. It is offered by the USPS and is considered and advanced grade elective course. Joining the USPS is required, but the benefits are enormous. ENORMOUS. I took the couse from an old salt (now best friend) and I'd take it again just to get the stuff that fell through the cracks. In that course is everything you need to know about the art of sailing. Good luck with getting wet today. Gosh, what a feeling !!! Tom

Thanks for the feedback.

Date: July 9, 1999
From: Tom Gilbert tgil95746@aol.com

Hi Paul.
Sail trim works out most of my wx helm, and just one more fine point on heeling. I failed earlier to mention that not only does the rudder efffectiveness reduce as the horizontal heel angle incereases, the COE also moves slightly to leeward, increasing as the heel angle increases. This places the rudder at a disadvantage, causing less effectiveness. (That's why the rudder control is lost at a higher rate than the angular mathematics would lead you to believe.) Therefore, as the boat heels, and begins to round up, the COE has also moved to leeward offsetting the moment of inertial for the rudder. Plain terms ? You've just screwed the rudder out of some of its advantage.!! Keeping nearer to a max heel of 15 to 20 degrees keeps the COE nearer the boat centerline, and allows the rudder to do it's job. Additional heel diminishes the rudder's effectiveness and allows the fickle face of the wind to drive the bow to weather.

Summary :

THERE YOU HAVE IT. THIS WEEKS CHALK TALK ON HEELING !!!

Date: August 27, 1999
From: John Bartoszek jbartosz@symbol.com

In an earlier note, I talked about my weaterhelm on my E40. This winter I had the genoa recut by North sails. Turns out that, with the way it was originally cut, I would have had to add about 4 feet to the boat to get the block back far enough to be able to trim the sail correctly. Haven't had the opportunity to sail much this summer but the one time we did get winds over 15 knots, I noticed that we sailed reasonably comfortable but had to hold the wheel over about 90 deg. (5-10 deg. on the rudder?) to hold a straight course. However, I did notice that I have been able to sail at reasonable speeds with winds in the 5-6 knot range. I am finding the boat to sail better with light winds than I would have expected. Given that, I guess that I will have to accept the fact that I will need to reduce sail in the 12-15 knot range. Unfortunately I have not been able to experiment much with sail trim at 15+ knots of wind. By the way, all the above refers to sailing closehauled.

It just doesn't feel "manly" to have to reef the sails at 15 knots ofwind on a 40' boat!

Date: August 26, 1999
From: Bill Fritz fritz@bnl.gov

I'm am looking at an 1981 - 37'. Does this model have an "excessive" weather helm? Any other 37 owners - what do you consider good/bad about the boat.

Date: August 28, 1999
From: John Lund Jdl747@aol.com

Bill the E37 is a fantastic boat. A or B plan it comes in at about 20,000lbs and is great in the heavy seas. I have been in 20-25 foot seas and she is great. mine is a 1981. Right now she just is surviving hurricane Dennis in Marsh Harbor Abaco Bahamas. Let me know if you need anything else.

Date: August 29, 1999
From: Mel Acado@aol.com

bill,
usually weather helm associated with mast position...may need to adjust length of forward stay...have enjoyed my '37 for twenty years...

Date: August 29, 1999
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

Mel,
Your right. Late in the life of the E37 production, Endeavour added a bowsprit and moved the head stay forward. Interesting thing is that they didn't move the headstay forward on all the boats they added the bowsprit too. The thinking was that they could increase the sail area forward the main to reduce the weatherhelm. It was a relatively successful change. You can read more about it in the PS and Sailing reviews (see the Discussion page for links).

Date: August 29, 1999
From: Gene & Lee Rice grlm@worldnet.att.net

We have a 37 E sloop rigged, the forstay is on the bow steam fitting and we have sailed this boat and have no weather helm. We have heard this from people and do not find it to be true, if you do have weather helm the mast can be tuned to remove it.

We love our Endeavor and would recommend this boat to anyone.

Date: August 31, 1999
From: Dennis Brennan brennand@nbnet.nb.ca

I purchased an Endeavour 33 (1984) this spring and it seems to have excessive weather helm. With full sail in 10-12 knots wind, the wheel is off the wind by over a quarter turn. Just wondering if anybody else has experienced this and what you may have done to correct it. Thanks

Date: September 1, 1999
From: Jay Salter jsalter@mylink.net

I have had a 1984 -33 for several years. Never noticed a problem with weather helm except when I use the large jib (it must be 130 percent or more) in 10-12 knot winds. It over powers the boat and causes weather helm. What do you mean when you say that the wheel is a quarter turn off the wind? Keep in touch.

Date: September 1, 1999
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com

Dennis, I received your post thru SailNet regarding your weatherhelm issue.

Weatherhelm is one of the biggest problems people complain about on boats in general and is usually related to tuning of the standing rigging and trimming the sails. It can also be induced by too much heeling. In some cases (ie: the E37) it could mean that a larger foretriangle is needed (more headsail). On our E32 we fly a 150% Genoa with our main up to about 15-20knts apparent. With this much sail at the higher wind speeds, trim and tuning becomes even more important. This is when we find that the 150 really starts to over power the boat causing more heel, which then of course causes the boat to round up (ie: weatherhelm). In heavier winds I also find myself tightening up the backstay to reduce sag in the headstay. With proper trim we've sailed our E32 in +15knts apparent and have had bursts of speed of almost 10knts! (surfing down waves in a broad reach). At this point, if the winds are steady or building, we reef the main and then change down to a 100% Jib. How much heeling are you experiencing? Also, a quarter turn on the wheel may not be bad. Next time you haul your boat, mark your wheel for 3 and 5 degrees in the rudder. If I understand my hydrodynamics correctly, optimum rudder alignment at speed should have the leeward surface of the rudder about parallel with the keel. This will create the greatest amount of lift in the rudder. Beyond that it becomes a brake.

Hope to see you around!

Date: September 1, 1999
From: Luther Carrier Lelair@aol.com

Hey Skipper,
I have a 33', no weather helm in less than twenty knots, with full sail. However full sail is with a 110% head sail. On our way back from Cuba this past June we got caught with full sails in 42 knot winds during the night. And a couple days later had a full main and reefed head in 48 knot wind, only to have the weak link break. The control line to the roller furling gave way and let the remaining head sail out. This proved to be a turning point. We found a lot of trust in the 33'....

As for your weather helm, it could be your sail set or your rudder / wheel alignment. If it does not give you great discomfort and is manageable, I say work with. Good Luck

Date: November 24, 1999
From: Mike Miller capnmike_s@yahoo.com

After moving the genoa tack forward onto the bowsprit and adding a larger staysail, I found the weather helm, while reduced, was still too strong...After checking out the hull design, I taped a triangular piece of construction foam in the "cutaway" aft of the keel, after first sanding off the bottom paint, and glassed it in with several layers of biaxial cloth, thus effectively lengthening the keel some 18". (I didn't cut into the hull, figuring if this didn't work I could just cut the addition off with a chisel and sander) ...

Voila! No more excessive weather helm! She probably turns a tad slower, although I haven't noticed much difference, but most of the really strong weather-helm is gone! (total project cost about $35)

Date: December 7, 1999
From: John Bartoszek JBartosz@symbol.com

Mike,
Can you provide more detail on the configuration/location of your keel "extension"? I have an E40 (with weatherhelm) and my propeller comes out of the top of the keel and sticks out about 8-10 inches behind the keel. I can't visualize where you installed your extension. I also don't know how your particular keel is configured.

Date: December 7, 1999
From: Charlie Mackey Mackeycr@aol.com

Mike:
I too am interested in your keel extension. What are the dimensions of your addition? How long have you had it and have you found any problems?

I have been thinking about this for some time but was thinking of doing the addition to the front of the rudder to balance it and take some load off the steering system, and possibly make backing under power a little easier. Any comments?

R E P L Y