Barrier Coats for Hull
Date: September 23, 1998
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
I need some help on this issue. My poor old 32 has about 10 coats of old paint on her bottom. My trusted gel coat man tells me that we need to remove all the paint with chemicals and then REALLY clean the remaining surface. THEN he will apply the barrier coat (numerous applications) and when hardened, he will then apply a couple of antifouling coats. He promises the bottom will be baby butt smooth and that it is the right thing to do. Over the next winter, of course.... Well, it isn't the 1500.00 that worries me.....Is the barrier coat applied to the gel coat or to the Glass/resin under the gel coat.....Does anyone have any experience with this ???help. Tom.
Date: September 24, 1998
From: Roger Wright roger4th@swbell.net
If your boat has 10 coats of old paint of the modified epoxy type (Petit Trinidad, Interlux Ultra-Kote, etc.), it's time for the paint to come off. Eventually the oldest paint is going to flake off. As for chemically removing the paint, that's up to the yard. As long as it's all off then you're okay. Next thing is to check for blisters and have the ALL fixed. Any blister not repaired will come through any barrier coat. As for the barrier coat, I prefer the Interlux 2000/2001 system. Like any kind of "paint", preperation is extremely important. Follow label directions carefully. Timing between applications is critical and a light sanding is helpful between coats. You need at least 10 mils of barrier coat. I recommend rolling it on rather than brushing as you get a more even coat. I put 4 coats on my 42 after stripping the gel coat off and repairing blisters and sealing the bottom with 2 coats of Interlux 1000/1001. It's a long and somewhat expensive process, but if done right you shouldn't have to worry about the bottom for a long time.
Depending on what part of the country you're in and how much you use the boat, you might consider putting Petit ACP-50 or Interlux Micron CSC on. These are ablative paints that "sluff off" as you use the boat. I recommend 3 coats. The first coat should be a different color that the other 2. That way when the bottom coat starts to show you'll have a good idea of how long before you need a bottom job and you won't have to deal with a bunch of old dried up modified epoxy coats of paint.
Good luck!
Date: September 25, 1998
From: Stephen Glick BOATSRI@cyberzone.net
Hi Tom,
When we bought our 33 last winter the bottom was in sad shape from neglect. The boat was at the Jamestown Boat Yard in Rhode Island--considered the premier "bottom problem" experts in this area. Here's what we did:
--Mechanically stripped the old paint to bare gelcoat.
--We then found some moderate blistering which we ground out with a dremel tool and patched with epoxy.
--We then mechanically sanded smooth and barrier coated with 3M.
--Then, new bottom paint.
All seems satisfactory. The only reason to go through the gelcoat is if water has permeated into the glass which you can check by grinding if you have blisters or with a moisture meter.
Hope this helps.
Date: December 1, 1998
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
Okay everyone, here it is.....We hauled the boat and took off the 8 coats of paint. Then we took off the Gel coat because of too many blisters. We will let the boat dry out over the winter. In Spring we will plane the glass bottom smooth and apply the barrier coats. The bottom is really bad...Not even a multi patch job is the answer. The factory allowed minute air bubbles to form in the initial layup process and they eventually grew up. I have never seen so many pock marks on a bottom !!! So if you all want to see it come to Morgan Marina in NJ until Spring. Then she"ll be a beautiful ship again. By the way, the rudder is just fine. Tom.
Date: December 4, 1998
From: Steve Glick boatsri@cyberzone.net
Good luck ,Tom. Sounds like you are doing a first class job. Glad I'm not getting the bill.
Date: April 27, 1999
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
AW GEEZZZZZZZZ.
Blister, blister on the boat, what you need is a barrier coat!
My E32 had chicken pox it was so bad. . . . So this did the trick. Another friend w/ an E37 just applied the copper barrier coat as he his heading to Fla and beyond next month or so. I found an E37 in Fahardo, PR yesterday, and it looked great. See ya ! Tom p.s. The stereo system is installed just aft of the closet on the stbd. side, and the Radio shack speakers do very well in opposite corners of the cabin, all wiring hidden. The three d.c. outlets work great, and no voltage drop can be detected at the most forward location !! LEAKS !!!! I found the wood trim piece above the circuit panel destroyed from water leaks long term type. I removed the main traveler track, and put in new ss screws, washers, nylon nuts, and rebedded them. Happy boat now. My cockpit cubbies leak, but that's fixed tomorrow. (caulking) G NITE..Tom
Date: May 4, 1998
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
The barrier coat went on realy great. Interlux 1000/1001 one coat, then 4 coats of the Interlux 2000/2001 . It's all really a teriffic system. We did a little sanding for perfection, and it's really smooth. We applied 2 coats of ablative CSC (2 colors) and will finish the job this week... It's good for 10+ years, .....we'll see......Tom
Date: December 1, 1999
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
Well gang, the season is over and the boat is hauled... The bottom is blister free !!! The CSC paint did it's job, and not a single barnicle nor piece of weed stayed attached to the boat. The bottom came out smooth and clean. The CSC paint top coat (red) is still mostly there.
Date: July 5, 2000
From: George "Buzz" Segura LAMTBUZZ@aol.com
Paul:
Had been reading barrier coating comments. Will be doing my 43 Endeavour later this year. Had filled numerous blisters with thickened west system epoxy. According to their propaganda, the barrier coat can be made with west sys. also. SO many products, so many suggestions! I should ask, Is there any reason I SHOULDN'T use west system epoxy as a barrier coat ?? Many Thanks, Buzz in sunny Florida.
Date: July 6, 2000
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
Dear Buzz & Paul...
My E32 (80) had a nasty case of the bottom pox....... We sanded the gel coat offf and let the hull dry out from Nov to April..... We used the Interlux 1000 as a base coat, then about 6 more coats of the Interlux 2000. When it came out of the water the following Nov., the bottom was perfect ! No drips, no runs, and no errors, unlike the NY Yankees.
All I had to do to prep for the next season (this one) was wipe down with acetone, and repaint one coat of ablative bottom paint.. It has done the job...... I highly recommed the stuff, and make sure you get numerous good coatings on. About 6 mil, I think.
I now have the nicest bottom in the marina.
Date: July 7, 2000
From: Mike Miller capnmike_s@yahoo.com
Hi Buzz!
Among the MANY things I have done with my E-37 over the 15 years I have lived aboard was to treat the BLISTERS! (Also I am a marine supply dealer, so have loads of info on epoxies, etc.) The bad news is that gouging out blisters, fairing them with epoxy, etc, will not solve the problem. The blisters indicate that your hull fiberglas roving is WET, saturated with water, which is collecting in air or solvent pockets and causing blisters. If you grind them out and refill them, you will only have to do it again next year, as more of the little bastards will pop up elsewhere as long as there is water in your glass. What you really should do is peel the hull and dry it out. The good news is that a friend of mine, an engineer, and I have come up with a great way to do this. Peel off the gelcoat and VACUUM BAG THE HULL! This can be done with a refrigeration vacuum pump (cost $200 or so) available at any commercial refrigeration supply house, and some plastic sheeting and cheap towels and duct tape all available at the local department store, and you can dry the whole hull out in 2-3 days instead of months and months. You can even re-sell the pump afterwards...I broke out even on mine.
As far as barrier coats, if you barrier coat the hull WITHOUT drying it out, you will only compound the problem by trapping moisture IN the glass. I Learned that the hard way, believe me. 6 coats of Interprotect 2000 had to be REMOVED as they had trapped the moisture inside and made the blistering WORSE! West System is a fine product, but it is very expensive. Gougeon Bros does NOT manufacture it. It is made by Mobil or Shell or one of those major oil companies, as is almost all epoxy, and really is no better than any other epoxy for a barrier, and is more costly. Gougeon is kinda like the Frank Perdue of epoxy. If you want a really good material, try MAS EPOXY, from Phoenix Resins in New Jersey. West Sysyem was originally designed for making wind generator blades in Minnesota, and was never actually intended for use in the tropics...it can't handle heat well. MAS is stronger, less viscous, and the hardening speed can be "tuned" to your particular conditions, and it takes heat much better. And its more waterproof. Anmd less expensive...... go to www.masepoxies.com
I myself used 3-M Vinylester, which has been removed from the market because of setting problems encountered later. I have had no trouble with mine, with 4 coats. It';s too bad, as this was a great product. Generally, vinylester is a good barrier coating, and is somewhat easier to apply and requires fewer coats (3 or 4)...there are other sources for this, but I am not sure who they are. DONT use 3-M!! There are still unscrupulous people around who are trying to unload old 3-M, and it WILL NOT SET!
We vacuum bagged my hull here at Island Marine and got the moisture meter readings from 7's and 8's down to 2's and 3's in 48 hours...when the vacuum is at almost 30", the boiling point of water is something like 60 degrees BELOW ZERO, and it literally BOILED out of the hull!
If you would like any other info, please feel free to contact me! Happy Trails and Full Sails!
Capn Mike, S/V SeaGull
Date: February 16, 2002
From: Russell Smith skybound01@earthlink.net
Hi Paul
I have an 85 Endeavour 35....that I bought to restore and resell....but, now we plan on keeping it and are thinking of doing some kind of bottom job on it.
The bottom is not too bad really with about 2 dozen dime to quarter size blisters, the keel however, has several hundred dime size blisters.
Was wondering what kind of bottom treatment has had the best long term results for preventing future blister problems. I have read all of the articals in the forum.....and have been specificially wondering about a vinylester resin treatment vs. an epoxy treatment.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Date: February 17, 2002
From: Paul C. Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Russ,
I redid the bottom of our E32 last spring but to be quite frank with you don't feel comfortable giving you an objective recommendation--only because I don't have the knowledgeable background. But I can tell you what I do know.
We sail in Lake Michigan and have been using an alabative or sloughing bottom paint that I wanted to get rid of. Too much work every year and the paint kept chipping and flaking. So I chose VC17 which is a Teflon based paint--seems to work ok and I don't have the flaking. The only reason we put a barrier coat on was that we had to strip the hull all the way down any way to get the new paint on. We didn't have any blisters and it was done as a preventative, "we';re there anyway' measure. We used the barrier coat for VC17 called VC Tar. I'm not sure what it's made of but I assume the name says it all.
As for your options, I do know this. gel coat is porous and eventually allows water to migrate in. I also know that pure epoxy is virtually water proof so I would initially look into solutions in that direction. I also know that the WEST System has a very good reputation and most people I've heard of doing a barrier coat seem to go in that direction. I'm not sure why but I do know the system is relatively easy to apply and can be done by a non-professional.
Let me know if you would like owner feed back and I can send out your question.
Oh. You might want to look at Practical Sailor. I've found their recommendations and product reviews to be very good and reliable. Although I don't remember it, I'm sure they've done a review on barrier coats. I'd personally give a lot of weight to what they have to say and recommend.
Date: May 15, 2002
From: Allan Jones Ajonesanc@cs.com
Hi,
While in dry dock at Pensacola I watched a number of blister jobs in progress. The consensus was it takes time. Some boats were tented, others not, they seemed to take about the same time to dry out.
A dry hull and lots of product when coating were recommended by the contractors.
Date: August 20, 2002
From: Andre D'Elena Andre_D'Elena@pgatourhq.com
Well folks, I've done the deed. I decided last month that I'd had enough. One coat of West, minimal filling and fairing and then 5 gallons of an industrial, epoxy barrier coating. After all of that I put on two coats of Petit Trinidad SR. I am officially IN THE WATER and it feels good!
I never got the moisture meter readings quite to where I wanted them. Hope that doesn't queer the whole project. I was veeery close though! Also the barrier coating was a gamble so I'm holding off recommending it for right now. It's called MoPoxy. It's a two part epoxy primer that is used on tug boats, oil platforms, container ships etc . . . Suffice it to say that it was cheap enough to put on 5 gallons without breaking the bank. We'll see how it holds up? The bottom paint was the expensive stuff. It's a hard paint that has some new slime resistant (hence the SR, clever huh?) additive. From the weight I'd guess it's just loaded with copper and maybe a little bit of some really nasty poison?
Well, now it's on to other projects. I have a Yanmar 2QM that isn't sucking water . . . anybody, anybody?? Maybe that's another forum? (ha)
Date: December 8, 2002
From: Eric Wolters eewolters wolterstwo@earthlink.net
I'm in the process of buying an Endeavour 35 (previously owned an E-32). The bottom has been barrier coated, but still has a few wet spots below the water line. Survey did not indicate an immediate problem, but that the bottom would probably need to be redone in 2 to 3 years. I'd be interested to receive suggestions or hear experiences from other E-35 owners.
Date: December 10, 2002
From: Tom Gilbert Tgilbert123@aol.com
Sorry to hear the first coating was done over a wet hull. I had my E-32 done a few years ago here in NJ, after we shaved off the Gel-coat and let the boat dry out over the winter. The Barrier coat went on, coat after coat, and we did the job according to the instructions.
The bottom is still perfectly protected. Perhaps you could sand off the coating around the wet areas, let the boat dry out for 4 months, and reapply the coating to just the troubled areas. Look on the web site for my inputs.
Date: December 11, 2002
From: Bruce McMahon lbm@amherst.com
Eric,
I did a Yahoo search and found a very good site at www.masepoxies.com. They explain the whys, hows and how much of barrier coating. There were some others but this was the only one directly marine concerned.
Date: December 11, 2002
From: Nathaniel W. Pierce npierce@bluecrab.org
We own a 35' 1984 Endeavor. We had the bottom redone in 1992 even though there were no problems at the time -- more as a precaution. The yard used West Epoxy Barrier (5 coats). No problems of any kind since.
Date: December 11, 2002
From: Donna & Rick Cass bacchus42@earthlink.net
Barrier coat is expensive, so we bought the West Marine brand, which is probably manufactured by one of the major mfgrs. We went away for a year, to Fla and the Bahamas, didn't pull the boat until last mointh,and came back to find no penetration, solid hold of the anti fouling to the barrier coat, and a generally clean hull. This may be a case of "you get what you need regarless of the price paid"
Date: December 8, 2002
From: HC Mustin BElisius@aol.com
I like the Interprotect system. Call International paints, or find them on the web. They will have a good, systematic plan you can follow, stripping, cleaning, drying, filling and coating etc.
Date: December 11, 2002
From: James Neihoff james@interior-lifestyles.com
My E-35 (hull#11) has a barrier coat. It has been in FL all it's life. Not sure how old the barrier coat is...but I am glad the boat has it. The bottom has never had a blister to my understanding. I just did a bottom job where I had all the old paint taken off down to the barrier. She now has fresh bottom paint and bottom that is still like new. I would recommend not removing it unless you were going to replace it.
Date: December 11, 2002
From: Allan Jones ajonesanc@cs.com
Hi,
I watched a number of barrier coat jobs taking place at a yard in Florida. The most important requirement is to be patient and allow the hull to thoroughly dry. This can take a lot of time. Tenting didn't seem to speed things up.
Peeling done by a contractor that knows what he is doing is the way to go. It's not that expensive and does a nice job.
West System and Interlux were both used. Whatever barrier coat you use should be heavily applied. It seems the recommended amount is minimal.
Owners seemed to do a good job and were more patient than the contractors.
Date: December 12, 2002
From: Jon Richards Endeav35@aol.com
I owned and E35 built in 1984 for ten years (1991-2001) on Long Island Sound waters. Wet Stored here alternate years and never had even a trace of a wet bottom and never barrier coated. She's a great sailing boat with room for potential upgrades, i.e., air conditioning which I recommend doing. Unfortunately I had to sell her to make room for an E38 CC which is also a great boat. You can see her (the E35) picture in the PICS section of the website.
My E38 had two spots that looked like blisters although we were told she was barrier coated. My yard, which also serviced the E35 and formerly finished out the LeCompte line of yachts, felt that the problem was merely voids left from the lay up process and not blisters. You might look into this possibility. If the boat has been a southern waters girl, long immersion in warm water will tend to cause a hull to be more prone to blistering or at least a higher moisture content.
If you are in the Western Long Island Sound area you might want to call Arthur Karpf, Manager, West Harbor Marine (1.914.636.1524) about your question. The yard is "sail only."
