Rudder Repair (general)
Date: June 3, 2002
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
Hi Paul, Here's an unusual problem...
I am assisting a friend with an E42. The rudder has areas of delaminating gelcoat and glass/resin. They are visible now that the paint is off, and they also tap hollow. They do not appear to have cracked or opened yet, but we suspect they might, allowing salt water to contaminate the inner foam and steel blades. My local experts suggest these foam cored rudders give off fumes that pressurize over time, thus pushing the glass laminates away from the foam core. If so, this would be a common problem, with multiple fixes/repairs, yet I have read nothing. Short of replacing with a new rudder assembly, what should be done to repair this unusual problem? Thanks, Tom Gilbert
Date: June 4, 2002
From: Allan Jones Ajonesanc@cs.com
Hi,
I had some delamination on my Endeavour 37 rudder. I suspect the cause was impact damage that allowed water to enter the area between the glass and the foam. The yard ground out the damaged area and laid up bi-axial mat to fill the void. Since the rudder had numerous old cosmetic repairs, we laid up a new bi-axial mat skin. The rudder looks very good and is quite strong. Total cost $585.00
Date: June 4, 2002
From: Bruce McCampbell bruce_mccampbell@yahoo.com
There is a good reference to do this very repair in the west system manual from west marine. Basicly drill 2 holes and inject epoxy. The trick is to use two of the syringes sold at west marine. Drill the first hole at the base of the delaminated area and the second at the top. Inject epoxy in the lower hole until epoxy starts out of the top hole...then lock down the lower syringe with tape and start injecting epoxy into the top hole until the plunger springs back. At that point, lock the top syringe down and let it kick off. Don't try to remove the syringe until it has cured. After it is cured, the cured epoxy on the syringe will come right off and you can reuse themmany times. Use epoxy and 404 to fill the small drill hole. Good luck.
Date: June 5, 2002
From: Ed Mahoney ed.mahoney@us.abb.com
Tom,
Your problem sounds like one I had about 7 years ago on my 1986 E42, Hull Number 155.
The rudders are made by a company called FossFome in Florida, I do not know if they are still in Business.
My rudder delaminated, and cracked, I was able to get the boat pulled, strip the rudder stock, and airfreight the rudder to them, and they rebuilt it in about 4 days, and air shipped it back. End result, I was back in the water Saturday, after noting the problem on Sunday. If they are still in business, they were a very good company to work with. I seem to think the cost was about $400, plus freight and haulout. It would be worth a call.
When the rudder came back, they included a service bulletin, that said, don't paint the rudder with dark paint, because it causes Gassing of the foam, which will cause delamination. Ever since then, I have painted the rudder White, and the rest of the bottom Blue. Originally, I had painted the rudder with VC17 Tar and Original. Good luck.
Date: June 6, 2002
From: Joseph O'Haver & Beverly Hancock nextstep@prodigy.net
Paul/Tom,
Read Tom's note. We own a 1986 Island Packet 31. We had the same problem--although I wouldn't call it blistering--more of a delamination of the fiberglass from the closed cell/dense foam core that makes up the rudder.
I rebuilt and re-glassed the rudder and had a more than satisfactory result and would be happy to walk through the process with Tom/whomever--I think the problem and associated repair are more the same than different in that the rudder construction is essentially the same--Stainless steel rudder stock with stainless "web", covered with foam and then covered with a "clamshell" fiberglass surface.
In short, a few suggestions--
- Don't try to do this repair on the boat unless it is absolutely impossible to get the rudder off. You're looking at 50-60 hours of work when it's all said and done--2/3 of that grinding, glassing, etc.. Trying to do this on the boat would be difficult--if not impossible--to get a good quality end product. (*PS: Get the rudder ready to drop out of the boat BEFORE it's in the lift--otherwise you end up digging a 5' deep hole at the back of your boat after the boat's sitting on the hard--if you forget, add 5 hours to the work involved. I was unwilling to try to remove the rudder with the boat in the water--I figured too many bad things can happen).)
- Don't assume that you can cut out the offending delaminated spots and glass just those areas. I initially tried this technique assuming most of the glass was sound. It was a mistake. Assume that if the rudder has started to delaminate, it is all going to delaminate. It is ultimately much easier to remove all the fiberglass and start over.
- I used epoxy resin rather than fiberglass--though I can't tell you what my logic was. I think either would work--epoxy just sounded tougher to me. I'm a total novice as it regards epoxy/fiberglas/mat but if you're patient and don't mind grinding off most of what you glass/epoxy the first few go rounds, you can come up with a factory finish end product.
- If you decide to tackle the project, buy yourself a cheap 4" grinder--which turned out to be my favorite and most used tool.
- A good yard will probably charge you $1,500-$2,000 to do this work. My total out of pocket was about $550--including my $19 grinder. You've got to decide whether you're willing to work for $15/hour at what is arguably hot, heavy, gritty work, exposed to solvents and the like, crawling around in the stern of your boat.
Again, I can fill in details for you if you want to respond. But this might give you something to chew on.
Date: June 6, 2002
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Foss Foam is still in business. I spoke with them about 2 years ago and they gave us the complete history of the company, business relationship with Endeavour, and the manufacturing process. They seem very knowledgeable, make rudders for a number of production boats. Here's a link to the topic in the Discussion Forum:
"Need New Rudder", or How Endeavour Rudders are Built
Date: June 7, 2002
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
Hi Paul,
I wrote to the manufacturers of the E42 rudder, and received an interesting response. I thought you could use a few laughs, so herein I forward to you and the Endeavour group the correspondence. I truly hope there is a better solution to this issue... Tom
To: BobWalker10@aol.com
Hi in there,
I figure you made the rudder for the E42CC, and I have a problem that you might be able to answer. The rudder has several areas that appear to be delaminations of the glass resin from the core material. These areas sound hollow when tapped, and can be seen clearly bulging out. They are the size of a man's fist, and may have appeared recently, or in the past few years. With the bottom paint removed, what can I do to repair these bulges, and stop this from happening? Will more be appearing? Yikes,
Sincerely, Tom Gilbert
To: Tgilbert123@aol.com
Tom,
The repair is simple. Cut out the fiberglass, dry it, glass it and paint it. The prevention is even easier. Whenever the boat is hauled out of the water cover the rudder with a white bed sheet. For more info visit our (Foss Foam) web site @ www.newrudders.com.
Thanks, Al
Date: June 10, 2002
From: Buzz Segura LAMTBUZZ@aol.com
Hi Tom Gilbert :-)
"Buzz" Segura s/v Hurricane
I've learned there are lotsa ways of doing things.
a. For the wealthy- Replace rudder $$$$$$$$$$
b. For the cautious- Have an experienced glass man make surface repair. $$$
c. For the person with good sense and some "hands on " ability.
1) Sand with probably 50.>80 grit sandpaper.
2) Wipe down with acitone and carefully applying a coat of slow hardening West system epoxy with a short knap roller.
3) Immediately carefully cover rudder with one layer of woving roving (heavy fiberglass cloth)
4)Roll another application of West Sys. Epoxy. Be liberal but dont make mess !
5)Let epoxy harden to soft stage, few hours. Re Roll cloth until fabric pattern no longer shows on surface .
6) fAIR edges , apply a coat of white gel coat (for the fun of it) and couple three coats of bottome paint. $$
Should give you years survice , probably strong enough to put a "Ding" in the sail of a submarine.
Have been working on "Hurricane" for three years doing extensive structrual , (see pic.) Carpenter with about 30 years experience (grunt ! ) Good with my hands, not a rocket scientist. Plenty of sweat equity in boat and patient wife :-) Probably getting a little long winded. Returned from St. Thomas VI one hour ago and sampling rum when looked at e-mail.
In short. Epoxy has a great secondary bond to polyester. Woving Roving is also really tough stuff ! The combination should do the trick if you have the time and little talent. If you wish, get back to me when I've gotten some sleep.
Date: June 13, 2002
From: Carl Hibbard Chgypsy@aol.com
Hello Tom,
I had a delamination on my E37 rudder when I purchased the boat, now repaired.
The foam inside is/was really rock hard, and although there was water in the rudder it was all external to the foam. Appeared to have entered where the fiberglass seam to the rudder post cracked, ---due to ?
Most repairs are to clamp or screw the delam area down to the foam and original shape. Drill holes and pour the epoxy in, then do the same with the screw holes. Many books explain this process.
I cut out the delam area, about 2' X 1.5' ovalish, with a dremel....time consuming. That actually caused a lot more work, but I wanted to check out the inside as much as possible. The rudder was then reglassed with mat to the original skin where still attached to the foam, and given two more entire rudder wrap layers of cloth. Used epoxy, although polyester would have worked just as well. Finish coated with Interlux 2000/2001 sealer. The Dremel was also used to cut out a slot about 1/4 " deep and wide around the rudder post and filled with 5200. Regards
Date: June 26, 2002
From: Rick & Donna Cass bacchus42@earthlink.net
We own an Endeavour 42 and also noticed some weeping in the rudder last spring (2001), when it was on the hard. We cut out anything that looked like blisters with a sharp utility knife and a Dremel. We found water locally behind the blisters, but no evidence of soaking into the foam core. We let everything dry out for a week or so, filled the holes in the foam with epoxy resin mixed with low density filler, and then laid three layers of glass cloth over the openings, ground smooth and painted. We won't know how this works until next fall, but after 4500 miles the last 9 months, no rudder problems evident so far.
There is a foam rudder mfg.. that made the original rudders for all the Endeavours, as well as many other boats. He is a great guy, and very responsive on the phone. Can't find his website right now, but he advertises in the sailing mags, and has the word "foam" in the name of the company. Hope this helps.
