Rudder Vibration
Date: July 14, 1998
From: David L. Shelton david.l.shelton@Boeing.com
Is there anyone that has ever had a vibration in their rudder? I can feel a vibration through the wheel and also hear a thumping at times. Is there an adjustment or do I have a major problem?
Date: July 14, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
David,
Could you give us some more information. Is there a particular time or set of circumstances that the rudder vibrates? When does it seem to thump? Does it get worse the faster you go or on any particular point of sail?
Also, please describe the Endeavour you have, the year, and other pertinent details.
Date: July 14, 1998
From: Scott Koverman kovman@m8.sprynet.com
Dear David,
Perhaps the cutlass bearing in the prop shaft strut is shot. Does it thump and vibrate while you are sailing or just when you are motoring? I just bought a E32, and since I had it out of the water, I replaced it. The part was 40 dollars. I hope that you get it figured out. Good luck.
Date: July 14, 1998
From: jones@viaccess.net
Have someone dive under the boat and shake or move the rudder while someome observies the rudder post from inside the boat.Chances are that you will be able to pinpoint the area of movement. Possibly a rudder bushing or a gudgion being worn or loose.
Date: July 14, 1998
From: Bruce & Mona Bonbright Bdb2@aol.com
You didn't mention what model Endeavour you have. We have an E-38 and the rudder has a short skag with two large stainless steel straps running from the skag to the rudder. If these are loose you could easily get vibration. Also, the rudder shaft is essentially held up by these straps plus the quadrant. We found corrosion on the bottom side of the aluminum quadrant and replaced it with a bronze one from Edison. We also had a fitting made that went over the top of the rudder shaft (over the hex for the emergency tiller) and on top of the rudder box assembly. It is finished on top with another hex fitting that the emergency tiller can fit into. This positively holds the entire rudder shaft and won't let if fall out in the event of a failure of the straps, referred to above, and the quadrant. We are planning a trip to the South Pacific and are taking no chances. We have also had installed a removable inner forestay, which allows us to furl the jib and put up a storm sail without having to actually remove the jib.
Date: July 15, 1998
From: Jim McMordie jim_mcmordie@gilbarco.com
I can feel the water crossing over the rudder in my E32, but I don't consider it a "vibration". I've sailed several boats that have this feeling in the wheel, or rudder. It is a sideways back and forth motion.
When I had my boat out of the water a while back I noticed that the screws holding (2) clamps near the lower end of the rudder to the rudder post were loose. I suppose you could have a similar situation that could be causing the "thumping" noise. I guess there are also bearings somewhere down there that could be worn.
Since we're discussing rudders - Do all the other E32's pull hard to port under power. My boat has been re-powered with a 24 HP Yanmar. When I under power, at above 2000 rpm (I usually power at 2500 to 2800 rpm), the boat pulls hard to port. Does anyone have a fix?
Date: July 15, 1998
From: Jerry Bernath Bernathj@pocketmail.com
I have never had the problem on my E42.
Date: July 15, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Jim,
Our E32 is very 'balanced' while motoring. In the 10 years we've owned her, I've not experienced this. Did you have this problem before repowering yours? What kind of prop do you have? Is it possible that your shaft/prop alignment is off from the repowering?
Date: July 15, 1998
From: Robert Stocker StockerRA@aol.com
Does it happen while sailing and/or motoring? If motoring is it all all rpm's? If sailing is it only on certain points, or at certain speeds? If it is constant I would guess the shaft for the rudder post is bent or binding when it comes through the hull. If it's only when motoring, then it probably has to do with the prop wash. There could be several other things, how long has it been since the boat has been hauled? Is there a buildup of growth on the rudder? Did you run aground and possibly knock the rudder out of alignment?
Date: July 15, 1998
From: Jim Woodard jamesfwoodardmd@ibm.net
Just the other day I was sailing in the Mississippi Sound and felt a thumping. I had the propeller in neutral, so I put it in reverse and the thumping resolved. Interestingly, shortly thereafter, the rudder quadrant fell downward due to loose screws and I lost rudder control. I fixed the rudder quadrant and all was then OK. Don't know if I helped any, but it might give you some ideas. Good luck.
Date: July 15, 1998
From: David L. Shelton david.l.shelton@Boeing.com
Wanted to take the time to say thanks for the quick response to my question about the rudder vibration on my 35.5 . I know have some thing I can check out. If I find the problem & solution I will drop you another line.
Date: November 10, 1998
From: John Lund jdl747@aol.com
Dave and all,
I have a 1981 37 and have the same vibration and banging that you refer to. I think it is the bushing in the rudder post that needs replacing. My problem is that I cannot find replacement parts and do not know the correct size. If anyone can help with the size I know a place that will make the parts.
Hard to Port
Date: July 15, 1998
From: Jim McMordie jim_mcmordie@gilbarco.com
The boat has a 14" diameter (I think), 3-blade prop. I'm under the impression the previous owner (he did the re-powering) experienced this problem even before he changed the motor. It probably didn't pull as hard though, the old motor didn't have this much power. I think your E32 is considerably newer than mine (1976). They could have changed the design to fix the tendancy. The prop in mine has no offset. How about yours?
Date: July15, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
The prop on our 1982 E32 is inline as well. How far are the blades from the rudder? Could cavitation be part of it? Although I would think cavitation would tend to cause a pulsating effect rather than pressure on one side. Is you rudder symmetrical? Does it only pull when motoring vs sailing?
Date: July 15, 1998
From: rwp48@aol.com
Sounds to me like a cutlass bearing. Does the shaft wobble when you wiggle it sideways?
Date: July 16, 1998
From: Jim McMordie jim_mcmordie@gilbarco.com
Paul
I don't think it could be cavitation. I run lots of power boats and I'm familiar with the feel and sound of cavitation. I'd also probably be able to see pitting on the prop from it cavitating for several years. I think it's just prop wash that's out of balance because of the proximity of the bottom of the boat and the rotation. Some people tell me that changing to a 2-blade prop will help, but I hate to give up the power (and spend the money).
I'm inclined to try to add a small trim tab and see how badly it affects the helm when sailing. I just wondered if anyone else had seen similar effects and had an easy fix.
What is the horsepower in your boat? Your prop? What year is your boat?
Date: July 15, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Jim, we have a 16" two blade on our 1982 E32. We're powered with a Yanmar 3GMD which is a 3-cyl., 20hp diesel. At 2500rpm we average 6knts in calm conditions, and about 5knts in rougher weather. We've never felt underpowered unless we were in a hurry. For more speed we would need a different boat ;-)
A couple of years ago we replaced the cutlass bearing. While there was some play or wobble in the shaft that caused some additional vibration on the boat, we never felt a port or starboard pressure on the helm.
Date: May 14, 1999
From: Mike Miller capnmike_s@yahoo.com
I had a thumping, vibrating rudder on my E-37 after having to replace the rudder when the old one was broken by Hurricane Bob...the yard replaced the rudder with a new one which was built in Florida, but didn't replace the bushing...the fit has to be EXACT! I finally had a new bushing made at a machine shop in Chaguaramas Bay, Trinidad a couple of years later, and had them make it as a 2-part bolt-together unit so it would fit nice and tight...we also removed and re-seated the rudder gudgeon, which is a 2-piece bronze affair and can be tightened around the rudder shaft...presto---problem solved!
Date: August 12, 2002
From: Charley Pawlosky cpawlosky@new.rr.com
Paul: Back in 1998 David had a question concerning rudder vibration. "
" Is there anyone that has ever had a vibration in their rudder? I can feel a vibration through the wheel and also hear a thumping at times. Is there an adjustment or do I have a major problem? "
There never was a definite answer as to what may have been causing the problem My 33ft. has just started doing this. I can feel a thumping through the cockpit floor and the wheel has a slight vibration ( similar to that of a car with wheels out of balance). This occurs only when under sail and while holding the wheel to starboard. This is really a concern because it appears to be worsening and we don't have a marine yard anywhere in the area. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Howie Hammermann howie@skysound.com
My 1984 E33 rudder has a small vibration. My estimation is that it is caused by vortex shedding due to the blunt trailing edge of the blade. It only happens at speeds above approximately 4 kts.
It's a rapid wiggle, not a thumping. If it thumped, I'd be looking at the bearings and strut mounts.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: James Neihoff james@interior-lifestyles.com
The vibration is probably being caused by a loose steering cable. Tighten the cable and the vibration should stop.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Wolfgang Harms Wolfgang@pioneer-research.com
I had rudder vibrations only due to debris caught on the rudder or prop. If this does not occur while under engine as you say, you can rule out the prop. But lock the prop into gear while sailing, so it does not spin.
In any case you must inspect the rudder. Since the rudder blade does not easily come loose, I would start inside the hull by inspecting the rudder shaft and its bearing. Turn the rudder left and right and see if something is loose. But be extremely careful not to get caught in the gear. Then do the same while sailing and while the vibration occurs (checking from the inside).
Then check underwater, move the rudder blade by hand. The rudder hinge or boot is very well attached and it would be unlikely to be loose. The rudder shaft has a steel blade that is molded into the foam core and fiber glassed over. I cannot imagine that this is loose. Such damages can only occur if you hit ground hard.
I hope you have snorkel and goggles, but I do recommend to every boater to have a dive tank on board with regulator, and if in cold water, a good neoprene suit. It is easy and inexpensive to be certified at your local dive shop. But it saves you a lot of time and often money to be able to do underwater work. If you happen to have an underwater camera take some pictures.
I just had major rudder repairs after a grounding. My shaft was bent. But I am pretty sure your problem is less serious.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Bob Griffin BGriffin@moen.com
Charley,
Ahhh, boats... you gotta love em!
Vibrations in the rudder (and centerboard on boats that have retractable ones) generally get noticed when they are bad enough. The forces that cause vibrations are with us all of the time. The things that affect the forces include vortices from the water, and side loading, which affects the vortices. The finish of the part, can be affected by marine growth such as barnacils (check my spelling on that), can also affect the flow of the water. So can a delamination of the skin of the rudder. Check for the obvious first!
The ideal state of affairs would be to not have any vibration. Then it could not affect the next item I am going to mention.
Slop in the bearing, shaft, and steering system.
The thump could relate to the rudder shaft shifting from side to side within the bushing. Check for wear on the shaft or the bushings. Excessively loose tension on the Edson steering system could contribute to the rudder pulsating at various speeds. The adjustment for slack is accessible at the steering quadrant. Way too tight in the summer will only get tighter in the winter, so excercise caution.
Removing the rudder is best done when the boat is hauled. Good luck with the detective work you are about to undertake.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Brad Wilson marina@portcolborne.com
What you are probably feeling is the vibration of the prop turning (also the thumping) from free-wheeling the prop. Put the transmission in Reverse after stopping the engine and most of the vibration will dissapear. A fixed 3 blade prop will also give some vibration even when locked in Reverse. This can be eliminated by going to a Folding Prop which will also provide about 1 more knot of boat speed and better pointing. Cost is about $1000.00
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Fred VerPlanck fastfredv@hotmail.com
Charley, et al,
I can feel a thumping through the cockpit floor and the wheel has a slight vibration ( similar to that of a car with wheels out of balance). This occurs only when under sail and while holding the wheel to starboard.
I don't know how the rudder is mounted on an E33, but the first thing I'd look for is wear in the rudder bearing surfaces, most particularly the lower gudgeon bearing, This could cause a vibration to occure under certain sailing conditions. Another, less likely possibility, is something that might be causing cavitation along the surface of the rudder. Are you absolutely sure it's the rudder and not the prop shaft ?
A good Marine Surveyor might be consulted &/or a Marine Architect.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Charles Miller nrthcost@velocity.net
Most likely the rudder bearing is shot. You ought to pull the rudder and look for excess wear on the bearing and replace it if necessary. Some Columbia owners have replaced the same bearings with PVC pipe with success.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Carl Hibbard Chgypsy@aol.com
You sure this won't also happen with the engine going and a hard push from a stop or reversing directions like backing out of a dock?----------Prop cavitation
Sure sounds like a worn ( worse in the starboard position ) upper steering shaft bushing. You will find it under the hose on the steering post entry to the hull. It is built up fiberglass. I saw this on another boat...."worse in one position", due to a current flow predominent in one direction at a dock and a pedistal brake that was non functional.
Assuming that your '33 is built similarly to my '37, this would allow the shaft to hit the metal sleeve under the cup in the cockpit sole. (loud banging noise).
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Kathy Donica kathydonica@yahoo.com
I can think of a few things that could cause vibration in the rudder.
- if your steering cables are loose...they may need adjusting at the quadrant. Realatively easy to fix.
- as the rudder post comes through the hull there is a packing gland and bearing much like the one for your propeller shaft......just like a shaft cutlass bearing can deteriorate and cause vibration of the propshaft theoretically the same can happen for your rudder shaft/bearing......yes you would have to haul to fix this one.....
- the third thing I can think of....you really dont want to know about because it would be major issue.....delamination of the rudder from the structural core.
Are you getting any leaks around the rudder post with this vibration?....How old is your boat.?
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Dave Nofs nofsfia@hotmail.com
Jodi, FIA is on the hard right now. She is hull #1 of the 40's. We,ll be back in Trinidad by the end of this week and maybe I can be of some help. I have to repack the rudder stuffing box when I get back along with a bottom job. I can TRY to make drawings and /or take pictures for you. All I ask in return is to send me the name of your boat and the hull ID #. It,s in the starboard stern. Just below the toe rail. I have a list of the 40's that I keep. Please advise. When sending back info,, under subject, mention E-40 or it may not get opened. Send snail mail address for photo's.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: John Craine jcraine@optonline.net
Our 1984 E33 Traces has exibited a similar vibration when under heavy weather (25-35kn winds) I was able to minimize the vibration by spraying the steering cables and the thru hull rudder fitting with WD40. We don't get those winds often in Western Long Island Sound (CT/NY) so I'm not sure this completly solved the problem, but it definitely reduced the vibration.
Date: August 13, 2002
From: Todd Evans Endvr33@aol.com
Hi Paul,
I had a similar problem with my 1985 E-33 where I could feel a slight vibration in the rudder under sail. I seemed to have corrected the problem by changing the tension of the steering cables. I slacked them out very slightly just so they were not tight enough to carry the harmonics from moving through the water to the wheel. I had to play with it before getting it right but now I have not had any problem for a few seasons. The rudder had been out for another purpose, throughly checked over while it was out, and my yard had noted no difficulties with the rudder or the post. etc. My problem may not have been to the severity described in the posting but maybe this can be of help.
